New Vine Maple
Forum Archives
Location: Washington, Puget Sound Corridor
Posted: Sep-19-2004 at 5:18pm
DH and I took a trip to the nursery today, and came away with a vine maple. I'd like to have it in the front yard--but that may not be the best place for it. There is a new water pipe that DH is very protective of, and full afternoon sun. I've been reading conflicting information about its sun tolerance and water needs. Some say it is sun tolerant and will color better in full sun, others say it needs partial shade. Some say it is drought tolerant, others say it needs moist soils. Will it be able to survive full western exposure? Does anybody know if the roots are likely to invade the water line? I can relocate it to the back yard, though I'd rather have it out front.
Okay--I checked out the Native Plants section . . . "shrub or small tree in sun" . . . but we are talking full afternoon sun, and hot during the summer. And the water line is still a concern.
Barb
Wanda
Location: Puget Sound corridor
Posted: Sep-20-2004 at 11:39am
I don't think they have very aggressive roots. And if you water it well the first couple of years, it shouldn't need much water later.
I have one in full sun and it does color up nicely in the fall. But I think they prefer some shade at least part of the day. Where was it at the nursery? Under cover or out in the open sun? If it was sheltered, then you should probably water it in well and be prepared for an early leaf drop. Then next year, keep it watered and it should do fine. Also, don't be afraid to cut it back hard - I sometimes take an entire long branch that comes from near the ground and hack it off to keep the plant bushy and not too gangly.
They like to be a multi-trunked shrub so you'll be fighting it's natural habit if you want a single-trunk tree. Vine maples are Acer circinatum but I also have an Acer glabrum douglasii which is also called a vine maple (sometimes Rocky Mountain Vine Maple) and it is much slower growing, more upright, and has slightly smaller leaves. It's a much prettier specimen in my mind - not as floppy and wild. Both seem to be drought tolerant and sun loving in my yard.
-Wanda
JeanneK
Location: Oregon, Greater Portland Metro
Posted: Sep-20-2004 at 12:53pm
If you put it where it gets hot, baking, sun you'll need to give it more water. Mine is on a berm in a south facing area that gets shade about 4pm. This summers dry, hot weather crisped a few leaves. I think if it got more water, it wouldn't lost some of the leaves. It does have a soaker hose but I didn't turn it on as often as I should have.
LOL, Wanda. Wild and floppy? My two have not done that yet. I love the multi-trunk look! Jeanne
Garden Spider
Location: Washington, Puget Sound Corridor
Posted: Sep-20-2004 at 8:56pm
Jeanne and Wanda, thanks for the information. It is Acer circinatum. Once we take the holly out, it may not get all the shade it likes, so I'll be sure to water it. We'll see how it does where it is. If it needs to be moved to the back yard, oh well. The major concern was the water line--DH would not forgive me if that new pipe got blocked by tree roots!
A multi trunk shrub is fine with me. I just like the red leaves in Fall!
Barb
EmilyK
Location: Washington, Kitsap Peninsula
Posted: Sep-21-2004 at 9:23am
Also, I read some funky-sounding info...vine maples are tolerant of both sun and shade, but the ones with the grey trunks can be grown in either and the ones with green trunks can be grown in shade only. I'm guessing that the advice has to do with the previous habitat of the specific plant--with grey trunks having already developed some callousing and resistance to the sun and green trunks lived in a shady area and having been protected.
Lisa A
Location: Oregon, Greater Portland Metro
Posted: Sep-21-2004 at 9:33am
According to SelecTree (provided by California Polytechnic State University and the Cal Poly Foundation), tree root damage for vine maples is low so I think there should be little worry about your water line.
As Wanda stated, if the tree was in the shade at the nursery or grown in shade before going to the nursery, it will have a harder time adapting to full sun conditions and will do best with a cool, moist root run. My resources suggest that they *tolerate* full sun - they do better with part shade to full shade (they will also tolerate dense shade). That said, you might be able to get away with full sun more than we could because of minor climate differences between our regions - we experience more sun/more heat in summer than the Seattle region.
IME, these trees aren't as drought tolerant as sometimes suggested. I think soils with lots of humus/forest duff helps them tolerate dry site conditions better. It will tolerate seasonally wet soils but not consistently saturated soils.
Lisa A
Location: Oregon, Greater Portland Metro
Posted: Sep-21-2004 at 10:12am
Originally posted by EmilyK
Also, I read some funky-sounding info...vine maples are tolerant of both sun and shade, but the ones with the grey trunks can be grown in either and the ones with green trunks can be grown in shade only.
Emily, I've never heard this before and I'd love to know the source for this info. It would certainly be a great way to identify in advance if a viney will do well in full sun. Thanks!
JeanneK
Location: Oregon, Greater Portland Metro
Posted: Sep-21-2004 at 1:50pm
That's very interesting, Emily. I have noticed that one of my vine maples has a more grey/whitish bark and the other is more brown. Also the leaves on the brown bark is a lighter green. They are supposed to be species and not cultivars. The brown bark one is in the sun and the grey bark one is in shade. Maybe I need to swap them. Groan!
Jeanne
EmilyK
Location: Washington, Kitsap Peninsula
Posted: Sep-22-2004 at 9:32am
Hi Lisa and Jeanne,
Yes, it was interesting info. I have no idea where I came across it--I was Googling for info on vine maples before acquiring one myself. I think that this info would be especially pertinent with the plants that I purchased which were just hacked out of the forest (with a permit of course). They come balled and burlapped but are literally straight from the forest (big plant/small root ball, but good price also), so I think that they have more than the usual amount of difficulty in transplanting successfully.
Lisa A
Location: Oregon, Greater Portland Metro
Posted: Sep-22-2004 at 9:54am
Thanks, Emily, I will google and see what I find.
IME, salvaged plants are a gamble. 'Course, it was with plants that were not recommended for large salvage (evergreen huckleberry). I tried to break the rules and didn't get away with it. Oops.
However, that doesn't seem to be the case with vine maples. According to the WSU Native Plants page on them:
"Even mature specimens can be successfully salvaged given sufficient care."
Unfortunately, it doesn't say exactly what "sufficient care" is (but I'm sure you know). I have also planted salvaged vineys with relatively small root balls. I had some twig dieback the first year but since then, they seem to have done fine. I don't think they've grown as quickly as nursery propagated vineys that I've purchased; I'm chalking that up to their need for additional settling-in-time due to the smaller, less established root ball.
I did notice, interestingly, that the WSU site lists these trees as understory in sunny growing environments.
Thanks for asking and mentioning that these were dug with a permit. I'm all for supporting nurseries that use ethical and legal native plant salvage practices.
Sydnie
Location: Western Washington
Posted: Sep-22-2004 at 12:19pm
I just transplanted a viney maple 3' green trunk this mid summer to a not so shadey spot. (Afternoon sun.) It was way too hot for transplanting -but it had nice roots on it. I watered her faithfully, even tho' All of the leaves died. She just started getting new leaves and is doing Great!! Later more plants will be added around her- and the wisteria 'over her' will grow- so this must mean she will do even better! Yee Hah!! I'm thinking that they must be pretty hardy. Good luck with yours Barb !!!
Lisa A
Location: Oregon, Greater Portland Metro
Posted: Sep-22-2004 at 12:55pm
Eureka!!! I found it, Emily! I thought, at first, I was on a wild goose chase, doomed to google forever in my efforts to find the bark color/sun tolerance connection but it didn't take me as long as I feared. I didn't find it via google, though. After some unfruitful 'net searches, I headed to my books and found the reference in The Complete Shade Gardener by George Schenk.
"In full shade it is green-barked . . . In sun it is upright, gray-barked . . . Collected trees with green bark will sunscald unless planted in a shady place; plant trees with gray bark in sun or shade."
This is very useful information to have when shopping and placing vine maples. Thanks for posting this tip up, Emily.
Garden Spider
Location: Washington, Puget Sound Corridor
Posted: Sep-22-2004 at 7:47pm
Well, tomorrow when it's light, I will have to go check the color of the bark on my viney maple. I think it is gray . . . I think I would have noticed if it was green, thus I suspect it is gray. However, I could be wrong.
Barb
EmilyK
Location: Washington, Kitsap Peninsula
Posted: Sep-23-2004 at 1:33pm
Lisa,
I can't believe that you found the reference. I really thought that it would be a wild goose chase also...otherwise I might'of tried to post a link. You must be really tenatious! The explaination you found is more complete than the one I found--I had to suppose the reasons for the color difference.
I purchased two wild collected trees and one nursery grown one. The nursery grown one was about twice the cost of the otherrs and was about half the size. It settled in and grew well during it's first full season. One "wild" one suffered a lot of twig die back and didn't leaf out very well although I think that it will look much better next Spring (it sort of "recommitted itself to life" after a few months of non performance). One of the "wild" ones never leafed out at all. That's not so much of a problem since I can get my money back, but it is a hassle to get a truck capable of carting around an 8 foot tall tree.
DebbieTT
Location: Washington, Kitsap Peninsula
Posted: Sep-23-2004 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by EmilyK
Lisa, That's not so much of a problem since I can get my money back, but it is a hassle to get a truck capable of carting around an 8 foot tall tree. Em
Emily, Or a large, heavy pot.
Is this really a problem in the Northwest? Is George coming from a NW perspective? I always ask this when it comes to shade because we are so far north that we get away with a lot more sun than say a southern perspective. Thought I would throw that into the fray. Plus it would seem you could acclimate the tree to sun?
sunrose
Location: Puget Sound corridor
Posted: Oct-17-2004 at 10:58am
I just received two vine maples, Acer Circinatum, 2 gal. each, from a grower in Salem, OR. They are upright, 3', red stem/trunk. No gray, no green. Prior to placing that order, I found a gal. size vine maple, 18" tall, at the Master Gardeners sale a month ago. Gray/brown stem/trunk. When I was looking for the vine maple at the sale, I picked up 3'-4' red stem maple thinking it was a vine maple, but the label said, 'Douglas Maple.' It's leaves were slightly different than the vine maple that was labeled 'vine maple', the one I took home. The 'Douglas' leaf didn't have the 7-9 veins radiating from the leaf stem typical of the vine maple.
I didn't know that there were "different" vine maples, but I'm sure there must be hybrids, off the one that grows in the wild, for home gardens. As for sun or shade, though I would love it in the front yard, west exposure, they will go in the back yard. One will get shade most the day. The other two will get less sun at different times of the day as the Acer freemanii (Autumn Blaze) develops a bigger canapy, newly planted, maybe 15' now. From what I've read, the Douglas is more hardy than the vine maple. Gray stem, green stem...What does the red stem mean? I enjoyed all the 'Replys'...Thanks!
tommyb
Location: Oregon, Willamette Valley
Posted: Oct-17-2004 at 11:28am
OK, I never could resist a fray!!
The green bark/grey bark may explain why my vine maple has burned leaves no matter how much water El Cheapo gives it and will justify replanting to a shaded bed. My bark is green.
Couldn't be that the nusery I got it from advised me not to open the burlap around the ball. Which of course I did. Finding a bare root---four inches in diameter with no feeder roots at all. Three years later I should find some roots when I move it. It did live!!
Buyer Be-aware!
Tom
DebbieTT
Location: Washington, Kitsap Peninsula
Posted: Oct-17-2004 at 12:03pm
Sunrose, Douglas maple is another one of our native trees and a different species than our vine maple. I had one growing at our last place that I loved. Their young twigs are on the reddish side but as they age they turn greyish in color. It certainly was prolific in its seeds and the chickadees flocked to this tree as well as the squirrels.
Tommy, I hate those kind of purchases, lucky though you managed to nurse it through to good health.
sunrose
Location: Puget Sound corridor
Posted: Oct-18-2004 at 10:42am
Thanks for your note, Debbie, and thanks all. I loved the looks of the Douglas Maples at the sale, tall, straight, beautiful leaves, and I'd love to have more earth for one to grow in, but I chose the vine maple even though it didn't look as good, crooked, scrawny, because of limited space. After I wrote my question, I double checked all three. Good thing too, because the scrawny one really has a green truck so I replanted it in all day shade. As for the other two...hmmm, oh the mystery of it all.
Gardening for the Homebrewer: Grow and Process Plants for Making Beer, Wine, Gruit, Cider, Perry, and More
By co-authors Debbie Teashon (Rainy Side Gardeners) and Wendy Tweton