Songbird Garden (Early Stages)
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Garden Spider
Location: Washington, Puget Sound Corridor
Posted: Jan-09-2005 at 5:02pm
So early, I don't even have beds prepared. But I did send off an order to Bluestone Perennials for 3 Blue Rye Grass, 12 Aquileagia Hybrids for the Hummingbirds, 1 Coreopsis 'Creme Brulee', and 9 Gaillardia 'Arizona Sun'.
The plan I downloaded from the internet has some very 'strange' measurements . . . they show 3 columnar White Pines in about 10 ft of space; even with a columnar variety, this surely isn't a good idea? I was thinking of substituting Mountain Hemlock, and don't think I can get 3 trees into that space, can I? Maybe 1, possibly 2 . . . ? It's in a corner, so I could locate 1 tree on the east side, 1 on the north side, and space them out more that way.
They also show 1 Daphne 'Carol Mackie' in what would be full sun, the other in partial to deep shade. Where I would put one Daphne would be in partial shade (from the apple tree). But the other would get 4 to 6 hours of sunlight every day. I don't think it would survive that, or would it?
The perennials in the plan seem okay--but the shrubs and trees just don't seem feasible in the space and sun exposure they have them located in. What do you guys think?
Barb
JeanneK
Location: Oregon, Greater Portland Metro
Posted: Jan-10-2005 at 7:44am
Go with your gut, Barb. Follow the plan as you want to. All plans have to be modified to site specifications. Three white pines in 10ft of space does seem odd, however. Follow the specs for the plants for height and width, shade conditions. Have fun!
Jeanne
Lisa A
Location: Oregon, Greater Portland Metro
Posted: Jan-10-2005 at 8:48am
Yummy plant combinations, Barb. What region is this plan from? That might have something to do with spacing and site conditions. Conifers can grow much larger and faster here than in other regions.
I think your concern about spacing is valid, Barb. As Jeanne said, go with your gut. I've learned it is better to not crowd too many 'permanent' plantings into a space. They look much better when allowed to grow to their natural shape and I can always fill in the holes with perennials and annuals that can be removed as the woody plants grow.
Personally, I'd only do one pine in that amount of space. I think it would be more striking as a single vertical anchor for the space. Two might end up growing large enough to look like a hedge, not the speciman plants they are.
I've seen mountain hemlocks that stay relatively dwarfed, especially salvaged plants. You could probably get 3 of them in that amount of space but IME, these don't always do as well in the valley as other conifer choices. MD, don't you have mountain hemlocks in one of your plantings? What has been your experience with these lovely conifers?
I would be more concerned about full day sun if it included hot afternoon sun or reflected heat for the Carol Mackie daphne. I have one in a mostly sunny situation but it gets relief from afternoon sun and does just fine. Okay, maybe I should say more than fine because this plant is a monster! I have never seen one so large before. It is about the right height (3'+) but it is getting close to 7' wide! I could have kept it smaller with pruning but I never suspected it would grow so large (the books lied! LOL) and I don't want to touch it now. It does lose leaves in winter, especially during really cold spells but it never becomes completely bare and it always flushes out fully with new growth in spring. It is planted at the top of a bank so it has really good drainage, which it is supposed to prefer.
Garden Spider
Location: Washington, Puget Sound Corridor
Posted: Jan-10-2005 at 8:19pm
Jeanne and Lisa, thanks for the info and encouragement. I still don't have a lot of confidence when it comes to grouping plantings (after mailing the order, I almost reached into the mailbox to pull it out again!). I am thinking of substituting Nandina for the Daphne located in full sun--it will get morning sun till about 2 in the afternoon, and I'm afraid a Daphne will crisp. I've fried other partial shade plants back there. Still not sure about the conifer in the corner--I hadn't thought about it, but you're right about pines being specimen plants. They don't look right in groups, unless they're spaced far enough apart to make a grove. In a nursery, I saw a weeping Alaska cedar (Chaemacyparus nootkanensis . . . sp????) that I liked. Definately a specimen plant! So I do have a lot of choices, and no hurry yet to fill the space. I'm trying to go with PNW natives as much as possible, as I think native plants will attract more bird species.
Barb
JeanneK
Location: Oregon, Greater Portland Metro
Posted: Jan-11-2005 at 9:03am
You are right about the natives, Barb. You'll attract more of our native birds with native plants. Nandina is a good choice for a full sun, warm spot. How about one of our native ceanothus or philadelphusPhiladelphus lewisii (Mock Orange, Syringa) . Very drought tolerant and lovely flowers. The Philadelphus also has a heavenly scent. Mahonia aquifolium also does very well in a full sun, warm spot. Very drought tolerant, evergreen, beautiful yellow flowers and purple berries.
The Alaska Cedar is a beauty also. I would love to have one but don't think I have the space.
Jeanne
Lisa A
Location: Oregon, Greater Portland Metro
Posted: Jan-11-2005 at 3:19pm
Jeanne, you should consider the weeping Alaska cedar, Chamaecyparis nootkatensis 'Pendula'. Or for an even more limited space, try the 'Green Arrow' form, which is very narrowly columnar, only growing 4'-6' wide. The weeping form will grow wider, from 10' to 15'-20', depending on whether it is single or multiple leadered (is that a word?).
Garden Spider
Location: Washington, Puget Sound Corridor
Posted: Jan-12-2005 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by JeanneK
'You are right about the natives, Barb. You'll attract more of our native birds with native plants. Nandina is a good choice for a full sun, warm spot. How about one of our native ceanothus or philadelphusPhiladelphus lewisii (Mock Orange, Syringa) . Very drought tolerant and lovely flowers. The Philadelphus also has a heavenly scent. Mahonia aquifolium also does very well in a full sun, warm spot. Very drought tolerant, evergreen, beautiful yellow flowers and purple berries.'
The Alaska Cedar is a beauty also. I would love to have one but don't think I have the space.
I'll have to keep the Mock Orange in mind--I keep hearing good things about it! I have 5 M. aquifolium in a container that will be fit in somewhere in the garden--I love Oregon Grape.
I am having second thoughts about the C. nootkatensis . . . I've read that birds don't feed on the cones, though it is valuable for shelter and nesting. But space is so limited, that for a plant the size of a tree, I'd prefer a species that provides BOTH shelter and food. And the Mt. Hemlock may need more water than I know I'll give it. I am seriously considering a Shore Pine. Yes, I know they can get huge, but they are slow growing--or am I deluding myself? If something gets to be 100 ft tall in 100 years, or even 50 ft in 50 years, I don't see that as a problem . . . neither we nor the house will be around that long.
Barb
JeanneK
Location: Oregon, Greater Portland Metro
Posted: Jan-13-2005 at 8:15am
Actually, shore pines are relatively small trees but grow fast. Here's an exerpt from Wallace Hansens' website:
'This fast growing, two-needle yellow pine is closely related to Lodgepole pine. Native to the west coast, including the San Juan Islands and the Oregon coast, Shore pine is hardy in USDA zones 5 -10. Being highly tolerant of poor soils and saline conditions, it occurs in the wild on sandy bluffs along the seashore and also in peat bogs at higher elevations, where it becomes a natural bonsai. The short, dark green needles are 1-2½? long and curve slightly while the cones are ¾ - 2.? Usually a small tree, it can reach heights of 50? with intricate branching forms. It is fantastic in a small garden or as a hedge. A quick way to establish a native garden framework from bare ground is to plant a variety of small to large Shore pines.'
I am going to get one to be the center piece of my small native garden. Mountain Hemlocks are definitely a slimmer tree. Shore pines can get quite wide and somewhat bushy while they are young.
If you need a slim tree for your area, Barb, I'd go with the Mountain Hemlock. I did not think that Mt. Hemlocks were heavy drinkers. Mine doesn't seen to require any more than the sub-alpine. They are both babies. I don't have my native plants book with me. Anybody have info on the water consumption of Mt. Hemlocks?
Jeanne
Garden Spider
Location: Washington, Puget Sound Corridor
Posted: Jan-15-2005 at 9:32am
Originally posted by JeanneK
'Actually, shore pines are relatively small trees but grow fast.'
I am going to get one to be the center piece of my small native garden. Mountain Hemlocks are definitely a slimmer tree. Shore pines can get quite wide and somewhat bushy while they are young.
If you need a slim tree for your area, Barb, I'd go with the Mountain Hemlock. I did not think that Mt. Hemlocks were heavy drinkers. Mine doesn't seen to require any more than the sub-alpine. They are both babies. I don't have my native plants book with me. Anybody have info on the water consumption of Mt. Hemlocks?
Thanks for the info, Jeanne! I just took another look at Kruckeberg's book, and he also says Shore Pines are fast-growing. Hmmm . . . I don't know where I got the notion they were slow growing. I've looked at so many tree books and web sites now, that it's possible I've confused species. Ditto the drinking habits of Mt. Hemlock. Kruckeberg doesn't say anything about needing a lot of water for those. The information really helps--I think I've narrowed it down to those 2 species anyway . . . at least for now. A month from now, I may have heard of 3 other trees that strike my fancy! Later on this spring, I'll take another good look at the area, re-measure to see how much space is really there, and do some more research.
Barb
Lisa A
Location: Oregon, Greater Portland Metro
Posted: Jan-15-2005 at 2:28pm
Here's info about mountain hemlocks, Tsuga mertensia, that I gleaned from 2 books, Forest Trees of the Pacific Slope by George B. Sudworth and from Northwest Trees by Stephen F. Arno and Ramona P. Hammerly.
Mountain hemlocks are timberline trees, generally found growing at elevations of 5,000' to 7,000' in Washington and Oregon; they can appear as low as 3,500' elevation. In their northernmost natural range (Alaska) they can be found growing at sea level. Their growth forms vary; on exposed sites, they generally are stunted but they can grow as tall as 150' under ideal conditions. They are described as trees of wet, snowy mountains and are found growing along the rim of Crater Lake. This should give you an idea of their natural range and growing conditions. But wait! There's more! (no, I'm not going to sell you Ronco products. LOL)
They endure severe alpine climate - daily and seasonal temperature ranges and changes, rarity of air and frequent high winds. They experience precipitation mostly as snow; they can be buried under snow, with no adverse effects, although the weight and snow creep cause the trees, especially young saplings to bend downslope before growing vertical. The condition is called 'pistol butt.' Average snowfall is 32' to 50', the snow tends to be heavy, wet snow, which comes early and stays late, providing massive runoff when the snow melts in late spring and early summer. Spring rains accompany the snow melt. They also get frequent fall rain but summers are usually hot and dry, especially on south exposures. They prefer north exposures, perhaps because of reduced heat and more soil moisture. They are very tolerant of shade conditions.
Based on what I've observed and information found in both books (both are excellent, btw), I'd say that these trees can be grown here but must be grown in prime conditions, like other alpine plants. 'Thrives in most well-drained soils, not too dry; but best in loose, coarse, moist ones.' I'd also bet that they are intolerant of or susceptible to air pollution and its problems. The ones I see fail show symptoms of succumbing to excess moisture. Since I haven't grown these I don't know if it is winter rains or summer watering that do them in.
That may be more than you wanted or needed to know, but hey, I'm an info-maniac and I couldn't stop. LOL
Garden Spider
Location: Washington, Puget Sound Corridor
Posted: Jan-17-2005 at 7:52am
Thanks for all that info on Mt. Hemlock, Lisa--it's really useful. Kruckeberg also mentions that it's intolerant of pollution, so it may not be a good tree where I am right now, so close to the city and the airport.
Barb
Gardening for the Homebrewer: Grow and Process Plants for Making Beer, Wine, Gruit, Cider, Perry, and More
By co-authors Debbie Teashon (Rainy Side Gardeners) and Wendy Tweton