Using a Rototiller
Forum Archives
Daniel
Location: British Columbia, Southwestern
Posted: Mar-31-2009 at 2:59pm
Well, I'm back. Used to be here fairly regularly a couple years ago, but took some time off. Impressed that I remembered my password :-)
So I'm wanting some advice on using a hand held roto-tiller this year. I haven't gardened for a while so everything is grown in with weeds. I'm thinking that a good roto-tiller could till these into the soil, right?
Also, since renting a roto-tiller for like $40 bucks for a day makes a lot more sense then spending a week or more creating garden beds by hand, does anybody here have experience using a hand-held walk behind one? How deep should the blade go? I'm thinking about the length of a shovel blade would be fine.
Anyway, just looking for some advice on roto-tillers.
gary
Location: Washington, Puget Sound Corridor
Posted: Apr-01-2009 at 4:58am
Welcome back, Daniel. I think that you might be referring to a tiller attachment on a weed eater handle (with the engine behind your hands)? The rate you quote is about what I get on a weed eater.
I tried one some years back and quit before I got a 50 sq. ft. bed done. And that was on sandy loam soil. The problem is that there is no weight on top of the tines. All the down force is supplied by you at the far end of a 6-foot stick. The comparison between it and a Mantis type tiller is worse than front tines w/ wheels and a heavy rear tine tiller.
I now use a Mantis on those 50 foot beds but once a year not after a longer time. If you are doing more than a few hundred sq. ft., go for a 8+ hp. good rear tine tiller. I did 900 sq. ft. on Monday in less than 75 minutes; N/S & E/W passes plus trenching paths between the 4x30 foot beds.
You can do a lot of work (with a much younger body than mine) on a four hour rental of a good tool. Think about the soil condition too. Doing it after 0.75" of rain like I did is harder than after some dry days. In other words, working on Sunday will be easier than today. And the weather system early next week has a good chance of coming ashore well south of WA, let alone BC so you might get some more dry days to lighten the soil.
Drier soil is especially important if you have heavier soils with clay like many in our region.
Gary
tommyb
Location: Oregon, Willamette Valley
Posted: Apr-01-2009 at 7:26am
I should have been incarnated as a mole, I just really enjoy messin' about in dirt...
First off, let's discuss dirt, as in what's in your yard. In my early years I had the luxury of working in a decomposed granite loam, up to (or down to) 30 inches of topsoil. I dug a couple holes to check. My dreams often return to that plot. Currently I struggle with Willamette clay. No topsoil as far as I'm concerned, just muck. What the standard wisdom wants is a mixture (structure) of sand, clay and humus (organic matter) in various ratios depending upon the source's agricultural beliefs. The discussion can get spirited. What clay needs is added organic matter to involve the various organisms in releasing the clay's minerals and providing space for air to be included in the environment. There are probably some folks who would complicate the challenge, I'm trying to keep things simple.
How to accomplish that goal has lead to many books and multiple theories and more than a few spirited debates. A pile of stuff on the surface will eventually lead to increased organic content thanks to worms and such, ala Ruth Stout and others. Cover cropping will eventually help. Raised beds can make the discussion go away completely. Microbiological activity and disruption also are part of this discussion, but let's focus on stirring the dirt.
My favorite and the choice of all true men across the planet: brute force. Bulging muscles and sweat, pain killers and alcohol, lots of noise and smoke. Shovels and double digging will work, but my tool of choice is the roto tiller. Unfortunately the marketing departments of most Outdoor Power Equipment manufacturers (OPE is the trade acronym) have sold the gardening public a bill of goods regarding tillers. How the soil is mixed is by the tines turning. If the one shovel deep goal is to be attained (yes I am answering Daniel's post) then the tines have to be able to penetrate that deep. The rear tine tillers can't do that because the transfer case's bulk stops the tines from penetrating the soil. A Mantis-type machine will eventually get to that depth, but how much time do you want to spend? Either tool requires tilling and removing the tilled soil, then tilling again to get to the shovel deep goal.
The remaining choice is the "front tine" tiller. Again the OPE marketing departments and bean counters have mislead the gardener. With the tines in front of the motor and with again a bulky transfer case, the "Front Tine" tiller is a monster to control and won't get to the one shovel depth without again removing the first six to eight inches of tilled soil. The only design I have found that will get a "shovel deep" tillage (outside of a tractor and a plow) is a mid tine tiller using a chain drive transfer case. The transfer case is slender enough to allow the tines to fully enter the soil (after a few passes) and will thus penetrate to the depth of a shovel. I know of two brands: Merry Tiller and Maxim (commonly found at rental places). Using the drag bar correctly and allowing the machine to do the work, these tillers will do the job without destroying the operator. The technique takes some time to learn, by the way.
With my book displayed, I need to rest. And this is just my answer to "how to roto till to the depth of a shovel", not whether or not such activity is correct or needed.
Tom
greenmann
Location: Washington, Puget Sound Corridor
Posted: Apr-01-2009 at 8:36am
I once double dug a small patch (about 15 x 10 feet) of grass... and swore I would never ever do such a foolish thing again, lol... so i guess I am not so manly a man ;)
As Tom indicated, I am not sure digging that deep is necessarily the ultimate for what you want to do. And a lot of this discussion really DOES depend on what you want to plant. Corn might benifit from tilling that deep, but lettuce likely won't care. It also depends quite a bit on what you want to do AFTER. As in, are you going to till once to break up the dirt, spread mulch, then till a second time to incorporate the organic matter more fully into the soil? If your plot has remained fallow for the last year or two, this likely isn't necessary, but then again if you are in heavy clay/silt as much of the northwest is, it might help too.
Honestly though, as I get older, raised beds seem more and more appealing!
Green Man Gardens
JeanneK
Location: Oregon, Greater Portland Metro
Posted: Apr-01-2009 at 9:02am
Hmmm, lots of good advice about tillers. Like Greenman, I prefer raised beds. Dig the soil and amendments in the raised beds and then plant. But then, I tend a small veggie garden and native and ornamental plant beds. If I were interested in managing a large veggie garden with production goals, I'd definitely do it Gary's way! He's been there, done that for many years!
Jeanne
gary
Location: Washington, Puget Sound Corridor
Posted: Apr-02-2009 at 7:17am
I haven't worked with Tommy's machines as I had front timed machines from my dad since I was big enough to stand behind them. And my Troy-Bilt Pony was new 35 years ago. Our sharecrop garden of the last two years has a Troy-Bilt Horse of the same age.
When first used my soil probe to take soil test samples on the 'sharecrop' 7k sq. ft., I noticed that most of the time I was having to add pressure to get past 6-7 inches in depth. I recall one location when a little bit of extra force immediately gave me an 18" sample. You really only want to test the top 6-7 inches of soil for nutrients anyway. But the general finding of a "plow pan" led me to invest in:
"Johnny's 920 Broadfork"
I choose the 9 tines on the 24" bar because I am dealing with loamy sand soil and though I'm older than most, I do have lots of weight and height to step and lever with. I also hoped that I could use it as the first pass to lift potatoes which by in large worked.
Deferring to my age, I haven't done the manual "Sub Soiling" on all 7,000 sq. ft. at once. I did 1/3rd last spring, 1/3rd this winter (last year's cover cropped fallow), and the last 1/3rd will be done before the fall/winter crops go in June/July.
Building semi-permanent raised beds is one year into a 3-season plan. I'm hoping that I'll be able to use dwarf white clover in the paths between the 4-foot wide beds to suppress most of the seasonal weeds. A mowing pass on some (?) frequency could give some mulch for the beds. If that works, I will only sow the winter cover crops on the bed surfaces. I am also considering testing a cycle sweet clover as an inter-planted cover crop because of its very deep rooting abilities.
If the weed suppression efforts work, I hope to be only lightly tilling the beds each spring to do the seedbed/transplant prep.
Gary
Guests
Posted: Apr-02-2009 at 10:33am
I lived in the Central Valley of Cal.Annual rainfall on average was 10.5" from late Nov. to mid Feb with showers to April. None in the summer months. The soils are basic to neautral and varied sonsiderabley within a given area. We had some clay topsoil, then hardpan of 2-6 inches thick from on the surface to about 6 inches down with sandy soil underneath that in most places. What I found to be the most effective was to rent a fairly large trencher to dig through the hardpan to any desired deapth up to 2 feet, then cross trench. then bring in pickup loads of horse manure and run the trencher over that. I would soak it with water, then after a few days run a tiller to break up the clods, then spread ammonium sulfate. Make my rows then plant whatever crop that I wanted to raise. For trees, I would rent a bobcat with a one foot posthole digger that drilled down to 42 inches. then drill 3 holes side by side to end up with a hole 3' by 42" deep. I would then take a 4 inch diameter 10 foot stiff side sewer line pipe with holes in its sides and cut it into 3 pieces giving you a 40 inch piece. Placed one in each hole leaving an inch or two above grade and put a drip irrigation line into each. I mixed in horse manure and bakcfilled. This allowed the tree roots to go down deep and have solid rooting otherwise the trees' roots can't penetrate the hardpan and would blow over in a stong wind. I hope that this helps some.
Daniel
Location: British Columbia, Southwestern
Posted: Apr-16-2009 at 12:21am
Well, despite all the rapid-fire responses, I've gone ahead and simply dug in most of the beds that I want to work this year, creating raised beds roughly 15' by 20' with pathways intersecting, all with a shovel. I've left some beds for when I do get around to getting a roto-tiller, but I've been told they're also fairly weighty and my vehicle is out of commission, if it would even transport the machine.
I've read all the replies twice now, and will probably take a third read-through to thoroughly digest them. Thanks for all the replies though. Tommy I was wondering whether you could give your advice on whether you think tilling to a shovel's depth would be a good idea? And you mentioned a book? Did you write a book? Tell me about it.
So from the above replies, I am learning things. I gather that tines refer to the blades that churn up the soil. I now know there are both rear and fore tine tillers. To a novice like me these are good things to know as I stumble my way about the garden :D
I also apologize, I meant $40 for 4 hours, not the whole day. 24 hours is a little more expensive so I'd probably do a four hour rental, and for that $40 might be more realistic.
I suspect I might not really need to go a shovel length deep; my shovel is about 12", but these beds have been worked before, just not last year, and 5" or 6" should be enough to take care of the predominantly buttercup layer that moved in during that year that I did nothing. The Mantis tiller you describe Gary sounds like it should do the job quite handily and in plenty of time. I've never used one though; what kind of weight should I expect? I ask because if it's little enough I'd go with local transit....:-)
I'll address the rest of the replies a little later :-)
gary
Location: Washington, Puget Sound Corridor
Posted: Apr-16-2009 at 5:32am
Daniel,
Almost every Mantis ad I've has a photo of a petite young lady carrying it with one hand.
"Mantis Tiller"
Not to be brand specific though as I understand that Honda makes a great version too.
Gary
tommyb
Location: Oregon, Willamette Valley
Posted: Apr-16-2009 at 7:59am
Tilling depth, or tilling at all, has become questionable as agriculture has began to understand the complex relationship of "life in the soil". Microbiological and chemical activity in the root zone of plants is an interesting field of both scholarly and practical (gardeners and farmers) investigation. To avoid writing another book (I meant a long post Daniel) I would suggest a Google search and preparation for much reading. Then make your own choice.
A worst case scenario of over tilling and improper use of chemical fertilizers is often called "the dust bowl of the 1930's".
There is nothing a tiller can do, to focus on the scale of most RSG plant people, that a shovel, rake and hoe can't accomplish. Time, money and choice determine the method of attack.
That said, I have a Merry Tiller (five HP size) and a Mantis (furrow attachment and dethatching attachment plus the standard tines) and wear ear protection when I use them. If I was doing vegetable gardening I would use the Merry Tiller for initial preparation and annual green manure incorporation/manure addition, then the Mantis for path or row weeding until I mulched the plot. For perennial or annual flower/shrub beds the Merry Tiller would be my choice for opening the soil and adding amendments to establish drainage/pH balance, then a Winged Weeder hoe is my tool of choice for ongoing weed wars. And, I must confess, a propane burner for when the weeds start winning in the gravel/paver areas.
Edit: one strong reason to have a Mantis tiller is for seed bed preparation. These little monsters (they really stir things up: use caution) turn clods into little bitty pieces better than anything I've found.
And the Potato Hook for intimate earth manipulation!
Tom
patti
Location: Washington, Kitsap Peninsula
Posted: Apr-17-2009 at 10:32am
I'll add my 2 cents here for thought. I had a veggie area for many years and since my back yard has a slope, I terraced it. Because of the layout of the terraces, tilling was never an option for me.
I have very sandy soil, left by glaciers. In the early years, I was very into "French biointensive" techniques ala John Jeavons and Mel Bartholomew. My kids grew up with the mantra "NEVER walk on the beds". Every year I would cart in massive amounts of organic materials, and I double dug those beds about every other year. For my particular situation the biggest struggle was moisture level in the soil. These are my conclusions based on 15 years of trial and error.
If you have sandy soil such as mine, raised beds are NOT a good thing. They just don't hold moisture during July-September unless you water very frequently.
Double digging (or deep tilling) is probably not needed after wide beds are intitially established, if methods such as no-walk, mulching and cover cropping is used.
Since weeds are the biggest reason people seem to want to use machinery, focus on reducing the weed problem over the long term. Recent research shows that weed seeds germinate only in the top few inches of soil. Every time soil is deeply tilled, it turns those seeds under to the deeper layers where they can't germinate. However, since many weed seeds stay viable for 10 to 20 years, every time you til, you are bringing up old weed seeds to germinate. By instigating a program where you remove weeds before they go to seed, and don't til the old ones up, you will, over time, have removed whatever will germinate in those top few inches and (in a perfect world) have elimated new seeds from being created.
This new (or old) approach, called the "no-til" method makes a lot of sense. As for loosening the soil, instead of turning it over, simply use a spading fork and rock it back and forth to break up compacted areas.
I recently worked on a local farm for two growing seasons. There was probably only an acre and a half under cultivation, but these folks had three tractors. Their soil is a clay-sand-silt mix. They never do much weeding during the growing season and instead rely on turning it all under in the spring. They spread their chicken coop wastes (sawdust and manure) in some areas every so often and til it in, but to much of the growing area, nothing is added. Their soil has almost no structure - it's muck when wet and powder when dry. They are at a point where the weeds are so thick that it is an impossible task to manually weed around the vegetables without a small army. They recently decided to try plastic mulch, which helped somewhat, but there were still tall stands of weeds in all the paths, producing even more weed seeds.
Also, with tilling, using roto or tractor, if it's a weed that lives by root running (such as many grasses and buttercup), tilling them under won't necessarly kill them and may even propagate them further.
I learned a lot about veggie gardening by constantly reading and trying to find an easier way of doing things. The main conclusion I came to was the only way to get there was through a lot of physical work early on, with consistent, frequent and timely weeding. Through this process, along with using mulches on the top layer, ala Stout, I was able to get to a point of a fairly easily managed veggie patch.
This is what worked for me, but everyone has to develop their own program, because everyone's piece of ground is different.
Patti - Kitsap Peninsula, WA
gary
Location: Washington, Puget Sound Corridor
Posted: Apr-28-2009 at 5:23am
Tommy and Patti have done such a good job above I have only two things to add.
- I believe the best way to handle sandy soil is to import sandy loam and build raised beds on top of the sand (works well for clay too).
- I ordered Tommy's two attachments for my Mantis. They shipped from a Sears warehouse in PA last night.
Gary
Veggie girl
Location: Washington, Western Cascade Foothills
Posted: May-04-2009 at 7:07am
Hi Daniel,
I would hand dig the buttercup and other perennial weeds. They will just come back if you rototill them under. My prefered tools are the digging fork and a hand cultivator. With the rototiller make a shallow pass and increase depth incrementally. On your last pass add compost and ammendments. Over rototilling refers to frequency (like over watering.)
Joy C
Location: Oregon, Greater Portland Metro
Posted: May-05-2009 at 3:44pm
When I first got my Mantis, I was not terribly impressed with it--found out why, I was following it around, and did not know that it works best by pulling it backwards. ---just thought you should know, Duh
However, I am combining the wisdom of Solomon's Growing Vegetables with the Weedless Garden theory of Lee Reich, of less disruption, less weeds. We shall see.
Joy
gary
Location: Washington, Puget Sound Corridor
Posted: May-06-2009 at 6:33am
Joy,
I've been using your Steve and Lee combination for more than 8 years now and I feel that the techniques work. Both of them remind us of local conditions that don't match those of Ruth Stout - No Work Garden Book, Pat Lanza - Lasagna Gardening, Masanobu Fukoka - One Straw Revolution, Robert Kourik - Designing and Maintaining Your Edible Landscape Naturally, etc.
Reich tells us that Stout had sandy soil that won't compact as you tromp all over it and a hay pasture and someone to cut it right next door. Solomon reminds us that we don't have back East's cold winters to kill the slugs, sow bugs, and earwigs that thrive in heavy organic mulch nor the heat of California to break it down quickly into finished compost.
I would add two other considerations about mulching your beds with organic material to preserve soil moisture and reduce weeds. Most areas in the east get 4 inches of rain per month all summer. They can "dry farm" all but the thirstiest plants most years. We get less rain during the summer than Phoenix.
Unless you water with drip irrigation under your mulch, you have to re wet the mulch before you get water to the soil where the roots are. And you have not stopped the capillary action bringing moisture to the surface from below.
A second problem of ”weed" mulches in our gardens is that we need warmer soils to grow all our crops. Mulch thick enough to stop weeds keeps the soil cooler (than is desirable?).
In his Water- Wise Vegetables , 1993, Solomon discusses these interactions very well. He advocates using a 1-2 inch thick dust mulch during the growing season to control weeds and reduce the capillary water loss.
I've been using the dust mulch since his book was published. Eight years ago I added drip irrigation (T-Tape) to the equation. (I'd used overhead sprinklers and soaker hoses before.) I quickly learned that I mostly only needed to weed near the drip line outlets and in the paths between raised beds. The dry soil on top of the beds doesn’t germinate very many weed seeds.
Reich discusses this advantage of drip irrigation and gives you good basic drip irrigation concepts and design information (I got my copy of his book from Dripworks.com in 2001 when I first bought the T-Tape components). Reich uses 3x10 foot beds. Even if that is a 42-inch handle spade in his cover photo, the top of it is several inches higher on his body than it would be on mine. I use 4 foot wide beds with 14 to 30 foot lengths. Adjust your bed sizes to your body; adjust your bed heights to your age.
Paths . I mentioned above that I have to weed the paths. My beds are 12 inches high (wood frame) or 8+ inches (dirt mounds). Drip watering on the top of these beds means good capillary action to germinate the weeds in the pathways. With overhead watering, weeds germinated in both the beds and the paths. The contrast is quite striking when you use drip irrigation.
Reich uses mulches for his paths. He even list more than a dozen different ones in a pro/con table. This year I will be experimenting with White Dutch clover cover crop/mulch in the paths between the mounded beds. I'll mow once a month and rake the clippings onto the beds. If that works, I’ll do it next year on the wood bed pathways.
Gary
Gardening for the Homebrewer: Grow and Process Plants for Making Beer, Wine, Gruit, Cider, Perry, and More
By co-authors Debbie Teashon (Rainy Side Gardeners) and Wendy Tweton